Wednesday 7 December 2016
Exaggeration in Sunnism
ID: 281 Publish Date: 31 January 2016 - 13:36 Count Views: 242
Speeches » public
Exaggeration in Sunnism

Dr. Husseini Ghazvini

In Previous sessions, we have partly responded to the doubts posed in Kuwait, posted in Wahhabi and Sunni websites by Osman Al-Khamis, a Wahhabi leader. Today, our discussion is about the other Wahhabi doubts in which we are accused of  exaggerating about  Imams.

He states:

ماذا يعتقدون في ائمتهم، لا شك أن الشيعة غَلَوْا في ائمتهم غُلُوّا شديدا، حتي غَلَوْا عن علي بن ابيطالب رضي الله عنه أنه قال والله لقد كنت مع إبراهيم في النار و أنا الذي جعلتها بردا و سلاما و كنت مع نوح في السفينة و أنجيته و كنت مع موسي ... هذا في الأنوار النعمانيه، جزء1، ص31، و الأنوار النعمانية من الكتب معتمدة عند الشيعة[1].

According to Shia, Ali says:

“ I swear to Allah that Abraham and I were in fire and I made the fire cold and safe and I was the one who saved Noah in the ship, I was the one with Moses....”

First of all, he mistakenly considers the book, Anwar Namanyh, as a Shia authentic book. No Shia Scholar has ever considered Anwar Namanyh as an authentic book; Even in the footnote of the same book, vol 2-p 108, late Angaji quotes from a great scholar:

“ S. Nemat Ullah Jazayeri exaggerates in some of his books, and also reading his books is Haraam”

Our scholars have such remarks about Anwar Namanyh. I am not neither proving nor nullifying his statements. But I truly believe that Osman  mistakenly considers the book,Anwar Namanyh, as a Shia authentic. It is considered as our third-rate or fourth-rate book. Its narratives are either true or false, majority of them are Mursal, some refer to an individual and they are not stated in other shia books at all. Second of all, if you think of it as an exaggeration, I have to tell you that from among your books like Hakem Neyshaburi which is truly praised by Zahabi and Ibn Hajar and considered him as an expert in Hadith recognition in his lifetime, he quotes in Marafe Olum Hadith,p96 under the verse 45 Sureh Zokhorf:

وَ اسْأَلْ مَنْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رُسُلِنَا أَجَعَلْنَا مِنْ دُونِ الرَّحْمَنِ آَلِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ[2]

علي ما بعثوا؟ إنهم بعثوا علي ولاية رسول الله و ولاية ‌علي بن أبيطالب

He says: Why were the former prophets appointed? They were appointed for the guardianship Muhammad And Ali-ibn Abitaleb.

Do you need any better proof? If you regard it as exaggeration, this one is more exaggerated. Why aren`t you saying something about the statement mentioned in your own authentic books?

Second of all, does it really seem unlikely for God to give his servant such capability ?

Khezr the prophet is not as great as prophet Muhammad and Ali. You like Zamakhsahr and Soyooti believe that God is preserivng earth for the sake of four prophets: Khezr, Edris, Moses and .....and earth is blessed as long as they exist and as soon as they depart this world the whole universe will be ruined.

Why don`t you consider this as an exaggeration? As soon as S. Nemat Ullah Jazayeri quotes a tradition about Ali helping prophets, you regard it as exaggeration.

Sometimes, we are obliged to reveal the truth.

Osman al-Khamis says:

روي الكليني في الكافي عن جعفر بن محمد أنه قال: عندنا علم ما كان و و ما هو كائن إلي أن تقوم الساعة[3].

He ridicules Shia. Quran says:

وَ عِنْدَهُ مَفَاتِحُ الْغَيْبِ لَا يَعْلَمُهَا إِلَّا هُوَ [4] 

Shia believes that Imams are aware of all sciences. Isn`t it an exaggeration? Isn`t it as if they are considering Imams as great as God? .... and the other nonsense he says.

We would like to say in reply:

As in the verse of purification, in Sahih Bokhari and Moslem,  God affirms Ahl al-Bayt `s purity from any evil thing, Almighty, in Mubahele verse, considers Ali as prophet Muhammad`s soul. When God asks Muhammad to go for Mobahele, Muhammad chooses Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Hussain. That`s why we believe Ahl al-Bayts have the concealed knowledge and they are aware of future, and you say that Shia must be murdered merely for this belief. But if you say something the same about the ones you love , there would be no problem with it!!!

 Considering these issue, we guess there`s no objection against those who exaggerate the story about Hozayfe and Abu-Saeed Khodri, the idol-worshipers befor Islam, those who then believed in unity and God because of Islam!!!

I want you to pay a close attention; In Termezi`s book which is regarded as an authentic book and in Ahmad-ibn- Hanbal`s , Hanbli`s leader, the one who claims that he has compiled all available authentic books in one, they quotes from Hozayfe Yamani:

قام فينا رسول اللهk فأخبرنا بما يكون في أمته إلي يوم القيامة[5].

“ He notified us of the things happening for his nation up to the Resurrection.”

عن حذيفه: أخبرني رسول الله بما هو كائن إلي يوم القيامة[6].

“Prophet Muhammad notified me about all the things happening up to the Resurrection”

Why don`t you consider this as an exaggeration? Why don`t you consider Sunnis guilty of heresy and polytheism? Why don`t you sentence them to be murdered? And when we believe Ali knew all sciences, you accuse us of polytheism and sentence us to be murdered.!!!

It is quoted from Abu-Saeed Khodri that prophet said his afternoon praying and then:

ثم قام خطيبا بعد العصر إلي مغربان الشمس، حفظها من حفظها و نسيها من نسيها و أخبر بما هو كائن إلي يوم القيامة[7].

“ He said his oration and notified us about everything happening up to the Resurrection”

Hozayfe Yamani also says:

و الله لإني أعلم الناس بكل فتنة هي كائنة فيما بيني و بين الساعة

“ I swear to God I am the only one who is trully aware of the things happening up to the Resurrection”

Can Osman admit that Hozayfe exaggerated and he has to be murdered?!! Or you just simply justify the issue that he has the right to say so, merely because he was one of the prophet Muhammad`s companion? As prophet Muhammad says:

أصحابي كالنجوم بأيهم إقتديتم إهتديتم؟!

And Ali (peace be upon him) does not have the right to claim of knowing all the sciences and the things happening just because you do not regard him as prophet Muhammad`s companion!! And Shia made these things up themselves?!!!

If Osman really cares about exaggeration, we have to tell him that Shias` believing specific issues about Ahl al-Bayt is not exaggeration. The real form of exaggeration is when Malik, Maliks` leader, says:

ما بتُ ليلة إلا رأيت النبيk فيها[8].

I always sleep seeing Muhammad in my dreams.

Shoarani in Al-Mizan, an authentic book of Sunnism, says Naserdin Loghani quotes something when he was about to pass away:

لما مات شيخنا شيخ الاسلام الشيخ ناصر الدين اللقاني رآه بعض الصالحين في المنام فقال له: ما فعل الله بك؟ فقال: لما أجلسني الملكان في القبر ليسألاني أتاهم الإمام مالك فقال: مثل هذا يحتاج إلى سؤال في إيمانه بالله ورسوله؟ تنحيا عنه، فتنحيا عني[9].

 

 

“One his companion saw him in a dream and asked him what happened to you when you died? He answered: They buried me in the grave and then two angel descended and asked me questions about the things I`ve done. Suddenly, I saw Malik, Malik`s leader, entering the grave with anger. He told the angels: “How could you ask him questions? Get away from him” . Angles were scared and went away. ( It is as if he is sitting beside God in heaven)

Doesn`t Osman consider this as exaggeration?

They, having no other option, try to downgrade prophet Muhammad to somehow upgrade the status the companions. Pay a close attention to the traditions below.

Sheikh Abdul Rahman Safuri, a Shafi-prominent figure, has a book under the name of Nazhatol Majalis in its V2,P184 he says:

عن أنس بن مالك قال: جاءت امرأة من الأنصار فقالت: يا رسول الله! رأيت في المنام كأن النخلة التي في داري وقعت، وزوجي في السفر. فقال: يجب عليك الصبرفلن تجتمعي به أبدا. فخرجت المرأة باكية فرأت أبابكر، فأخبرته بمنامها و لم تذكر له قول النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم، فقال: إذهبي فإنك تجتمعين به في هذه الليلة. فدخلت إلى منزلها و هي متفكرة في قول النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم و قول أبي بكر، فلما كان الليل و إذا بزوجها قد أتى، فذهبت إلى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم و أخبرته بزوجها، فنظر إليها طويلا فجاءه جبرئيل و قال: يا محمد! الذي قلته هو الحق، و لكن لما قال الصديق إنك تجتمعين به في هذه الليلة استحيا الله منه أن يجري على لسانه الكذب، لأنه صديق فأحياه

One day, a lady asked Prophet Muhammad to interpret her dream. She said: “ I dreamed something frightening. I saw a very thick date tree in the yard then it fell down on my skirt; since my husband is in travel, I`m really worried”

Prophet Muhammad said: “I offer my condolences to you, your husband dies in travel and you will be a widow”.

The lady was returning home while she was crying, suddenly she saw Abu-Bakr. She didn`t say anything about prophet Muhammad`s interpretation. She told everything to Abu-Bakr about her dream. Abu-Bakr said: “ Your husband will come home tonight and he will be sleeping with you”. The lady went home, comparing the two interpretations. While she was thinking, someone knocked the door. She opened the door and her husband was standing right there. The day after, she talked to prophet about his misinterpretation. Gabriel descended and said: Oh Muhammad, what you said was right. He was dead, but when Abu-Bakr interpreted that way, God revived him for the sake of Abu-Bakr because he is the righteous person.

We don`t want to deal with the issue that you are somehow accusing prophet Muhammad of being a liar. Even a stupid person laughs at this tradition. How could it be possible that God would downgrade Muhammad to attribute a virtue to Abu-Bakr?. Why didn`t you say that Abuzar or Salman interpreted this way instead of prophet Muhammad? It is not fair to downgrade Prophet Muhammad to upgrade the status of Abu-Bakr.

How could not you consider this as an exaggeration? But When Koleini writes something about Ali in his book, that Ali says: “I will let you know about future” you`ll consider it as something quite contrary to Quran and denying this verse:

وَ عِنْدَهُ مَفَاتِحُ الْغَيْبِ لَا يَعْلَمُهَا إِلَّا هُوَ [10] 

And aslo they regard Abu-Bakr superior than Gabriel and say:

أن رجلا مات بالمدينة فأراد النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم أن يصلي عليه فنزل جبريل و قال: يا محمد لا تصل عليه، فامتنع؛ فجاء أبوبكر فقال: يا نبي الله صل عليه فما علمت منه إلا خيرا؛ فنزل جبريل و قال: يا محمد صل عليه، فإن شهادة أبي بكر مقدمة على شهادتي[11].

Once there was someone dead and prophet wanted to say praying for him, Gabriel said: “ Don`t say pray for him” . Prophet obeyed and didn`t pray him. Then Abu-Bakr came and told prophet “ Pray for him, I haven`t seen anything from him but good deeds” . Gabriel said: “ Oh Muhammad, pray for him because Abu-Bakr`s order is more important than what I order”

You don`t regard these issues as exaggeration because they are all about your great caliphs. But if we attribute the same things to our Imams and Ali, we should be executed!!!!

You have also attributed some virtues to second caliph:

Once, Omar was reading the Friday praying oration and also some verses of Quran. Suddenly he said something for three times: “Oh, Sari,the mountain”. Everyone wondered what happened. After praying companions asked him: “What made you say such a thing?” He said: “ While I was reading the oration, I saw enemies coming from four direction to defeat and kill the troops I`ve sent to conquer Nahavand, the one which is led by Sari. I called him to go for one direction near the mountain  to avoid enemies coming from four directions. He came and fought”. After three months when the troop returned to Medina, we asked them whether they`ve seen this incident. They said: “yes, we were in Nahavand mountain hearing Omar`s voice cominf from Medina, we all heard him saying: “ Oh Sari, the mountain”.  “And if it was not for his voice, we all could have been killed and Islam couldn`t get this victory”.

This story is regarded as an undeniable fact among Sunni people. Even Ibn-Teimie, the one who believes Shias are polytheists merely because they believe Ali knows everything about future, quotes this tradition as an undeniable fact in the book called Daghayegh Tafsir v2, p140.

Oh you Osman al-Khamis , you said: “no one knows anything about future except God and whoever claims that there is someone except God knowing something about future is polytheist and is denying Quran”. So how could Omar, the second caliph, saw the Nahavand deserts and spread his voice and Islamic troops won the battle because of his voice?!! But if Ali says something about the incidents Basra in Nahjolbalaghe, you say we are polytheists and we are exaggerating!!!

In Tafsir Fakhr Razi, there are some funny statements which oration narators can use as jokes to make people laugh. They say: “ Nile river was overflowing and houses were being destroyed. People asked Omar to help and save their houses . Omar said: “ Bring me a terracotta” . They brought one and he wrote something on it as follow: ايها النيل! إن كنت تجري بأمرالله، فاجر؛ و إن كنت تجري بأمري فلا حاجة بنا إليك[12].

 If you are flowing by God`s order then flow and if you are flowing by your will , we don`t care . From then, the river never overflowed and people never worried about it.

Once an earthquake happened and people scattered around and asked second caliph for help. Second caliph stroke his whip down on the floor and said: أسكني بإذن الله، فسكت[13]. “ stop shaking in God`s order ” then the medina stopped shaking and never quaked again.

If Ali says: “I was the one who made the fire cold and safe for Abraham”, you regard his statement as exaggeration and those who believe this must be killed . but Fakhr Razi the Sunni..............., says:

“ One house in Medina was on fire and gradually the other houses got on fire too. People were all concerned and worried the fire spreading to other houses. Omar wrote something as follow: فكتب عمر علي خزفة: يا نا أسكني بإذن الله، فألقوها في النار، فانطفأت في الحال[14].

“ Oh fire stay away from Medina” he put it in fire then fire vanished in a blink an of eye.

Since it`s about Omar , you don`t consider it as exaggeration . but if Ali says something like that will be considered as exaggeration . why ? maybe Omar has some specific attributes that Ali doesn`t .

Omar was an idol worshiper up to 7 or 8 years of  Muhammad`s prophecy , he always bowed for idols , but Ali never did it. He was with prophet Muhammad from his childhood. He said his praying seven years before anybody knew what praying was .

But Omar was an idol worshiper for 7 or 8 years after prophet Muhammad`s appointment . he was so virtuous powerful and serious that people were all afraid to be Muslim these characteristics have been  attributed to him and they`re considered as undeniable facts in history and sunni beliefs .If you read the translated volume  of  the books like Asad -Al -Ghabe , Assabe, Estiab, written about the companions, the following characteristics are all attributed to Omar:

“Omar figured out that the number of Muslim were rising . He picked up his sword furiously and left. They asked him: “where are you going?” he said : إني أريد أن أقتل محمد[15] “ I want to kill Muhammad and let people free.” He was running having a sword in his hand someone else asked him: “where are you going ?” he replied: “I want to kill Muhammad and let people free.”The man said : “There`s no need to kill him because your sister and your brother -in-low decided to be Muslim. First of all , you have to deal with them then go and kill Muhammad”.

Omar entered his sister`s house , he saw them reading Quran. He started hitting his brother -in-law. His sister wanted to stop Omar, but Omar hit them both to bleed. When Omar saw them bleeding , he got upset because he saw really kind and nice. He sat down and asked: “Oh my dear sister and brother -in-law what were you reading?” they replied: “we were reading Quran”. Omar said: “read me some”. They started reading. Omar said: “I`m surprised . did prophet bring these?” They said: “yes”. Omar then said : “ I now go and believe Muhammad” so he visited prophet Muhammad and said: “oh Muhammad , I shall be a Muslim from now on”.

These characteristics are all attributed to Omar . As a matter of fact , all Sunni books are filled with these attributes. Surely , Ali was not that much virtuous to beat his sister and brother -in-law merely because they believed Islam!!!

Sunny books include tens of other stories like this and I know more 200 cases like Companions  . For instance , they`ve written about Ahmad-ibn-Hanbal as follow :  “we repeatedly built shrine and dome for his grave but they were all destroyed within a year. We were really upset . We asked God : “why is it like that?”. They said : “ after a while , we dreamed Ahmad-ibn-Hanbal and asked him the same question . He said : “you are not aware. God descends to visit me every year and my tombstone shatters because of his great presence”. They said: “ from then, we never built shrine for his grave”.

These statements are in the introduction part of the book called Musnad Ahmad . They`re not exaggeration !!! but if we say the same thing about our Imams , you regard them as polytheism.

Sunnis regard Imam`s concealed knowledge as polytheism , but if  Ibn-Teimie claims to have concealed knowledge , it would not any problem. Ibn-Ghayem- Jozie , Ibn-Teimie`s student , owns a book called Madarej Al-Sakin , an authentic Wahabie book , in which he says : “I have repeatedly seen Ibn-Teimie talking about concealed knowledge. Once he said : “ when مغول attacks Damascus , they`ll be defeated and Islamic troops will gain the victory”. Even , he swore by the name of God for seventy times that............ will be defeated . some objected and said: “how could swear for seventy times while no one knows anything about future but God? At least , say if God willing”. He said: “I won`t say anything like that”. They said: “ so how do you know all this?” he replied: “I looked upon the protected tablet , and I saw something written about ..........

How could you not regard this as exaggeration? Maybe Ibn-Teimie was that much virtuous in worshiping that he could have looked upon and read the protected tablet!!!!!

And also he , in page 490 the same book , says: “ Ibn- Teimie always told me: “when people visit me I can see their insight , some one like this , some one like that , but I can not reveal it””.

Even Ibn-Ghayem Juri talks about his personal experiences with Ibn- Teimie : و أخبري غير مرة بأمور باطنة تختص بي.

sometimes , Ibn-Teimie told me something about my future in which I haven`t found anything contrary with truth.

Ibn-Hajar writes about Ibn- Teimie as follow : “Ibn Tiemie is believed to be a polytheist and hypocrite by Muslims since he insulted prophet Muhammad and Ali. He believed ali made 17 mistakes and acted contrary to Quran and practise of prophet . when Ibn-Tiemie says such statements , you don`t consider them as exaggerations , but if Shia believe Ali saying :

“ Oh people, in Safain battle , thousands of people will be our comrades . some objected and said : “ At least say almost a thousand”. He replied: “ no percisely a thousand , no one more , no one less”. Even Ibn-Abbas objected and said : “ if something else happens , people might not believe you anymore” . he replied : “I believe what I say”. They counted one by one up to 999, one was missing meanwhile , some were losing their faith .Suddenly , we saw someone coming on his feet. We approached him, he was Oveis Gharani . As he joined , Ali`s troops was completed up to 1000.

Since Shias quote this, you regard it as exaggeration , and you accuse Muslims of polytheism. But it would not be exaggeration if Ibn-Teimie says the same thing about Omar or Abu-Bakr. Or that wicked Jew , the one who played a role in every massacre done in Islam , the one who wrote all Israeli stories in Sunni books , the one whom about you have written as follow :

The Jew told me about Omar`s martyrdom for three times . he told me : “ you will be martyred three days later”. The next day , he came and said : “you will be martyred in next two days”. The day after , he came and said: “tomorrow, you will be martyred”. As the Jew said , Abululu Majusi came and slaughtered Omar and made him a martyred.

Since the Jew quotes this, you don`t regard it as exaggeration but if Salman and Abuzar say the same thing about Imams , you surely would consider as exaggeration .

We should not remain silent toward these constant bombardment . we have to respond them the way they respond us. Since they would simply justify our reasons and proofs, we have to contradict their claim.

Dr Sayyed Muhammad Hosseini Ghazvini

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First name and last name : Muhammad Sadegh -Date :Mordad 6,89.

First name and last name : Mosalman- Date :Mordad 18,89.

السلام

ان الهدي من الله

فمن الله التوفيق عليه التکلان

انظار فرج

“In the name of God . Oh dear Shia and Sunni brothers , what I would like to say is majority of Sunnis  are content with the things Abul-malek do . but what is really clear from this system is obvious discrimination between Sunnies and Shias particularly in cities which the number of Shias and Sunnies is almost equal. And in some fake ceremonies like Fatima`s martyrdom, they hurt the feeling of Sunnies by insulting and also mourning over some made-up stories . Besides, they have established almost 30 satellite channels in which they always swear and insult Sunnie beliefs. Also , they falsely claim unity among their people in Iranian channels . and since they`re not capable of debating , they don`t ask for it cause they`re afraid of being labeled as Wahhabi so they have to remain silent for the rest of their life.

And some like Abdul-Malek would sacrifice all they have , though , people like him might be very useful for the regime to kill whomever they wish to under the name of the assassins. So people would consider Saudi Arabia , Wahhabias , and America as responsible . This regime would not be afraid of getting 100 or 200 Shias killed . Besides, there was no Shia or Sunni in the time of prophet Muhammad (I mean like the ones living now ) and the standard was believing Islam. We are really want to know who is right and it would be much simple if Iranian government and jurists seriously want to let people know about truth . I demand them to hold a live debate in a national channel, inviting Sunni Scholars to see which sect is more legitimate . Sunni scholar would like to have a debate in a live national channel in Iran to let all.

Iranian watch it, to actually avoid any censorship and filtering for the opposes . and every one would consider this as something fair . Believe me , if they had something to say , they would have said it by now. They would not have limited people by ignorance or made Shia by money. If they are legitimate, why are they blocking websites? Why don`t they let people use press , mass medias and Internet without filtering?

So, there surely is something wrong with them.

First and Last Name: Saeed Hosseini, Mordad 19 – 1389, 18:58:20

Hello

Oh, Mr. Mosalman, Who are your religious leaders in Iran? Aren`t you following them? How could say you don`t like Abdulmalek? How could you not agree with the things he does? How could you lie that much? Everyone knows that majority of your Molavies were somehow connected to Abdulmalek and supported him. Shia won`t believe you anymore. Sunnis are wordly known for their violence. Do you know any Sunni who truly follows Islam? Just take a look around Sunni countries to see what is going on there. Wahhabis are now murdering Shia and non-Wahhabis are now engaged with corruption. And common people just like before, are fully obeying Molavies and they are deprived from educating and gaining knowledge.  Your sinful, treacherous, and wicked caliphs started these issues 1400 years ago. Abdul Malek ,someone from a sect and a school of thought which is filled with violence and arrogance, breached this school of thought so Islam would be safe from any harm. May God curse the oppressors.

First name and family name :Mehran Salehi

Date : Shahrivar 12 , 1389.

We have thousands of cases like this in our traditions and Hadiths . why do always talk about Omar? Aren`t Ali and Omar relatives? Aren`t the name of Ali`s sons, Abu-Bakr and Osman ? and Shias refuse writing their names in their books ? if anyone insult these two , he would confront with consequences . God knows what would happen for those who intentionally insult them . He will be punished hereafter if yiu believe it .

Response:

Dear caller

To get your answer , we would like to refer to following sources:

1.     Ali`s naming his children: http//www.valiasaj.com/fa /page. Php?bank = question...id =437

2.     Omar`s marriage with Om-kolsum (peace be upon her)  

http://www.valiasr-aj.com/fa/page.php?bank=maghalat&id=83

 

3.     Ali`s idea about caliphs.

http://www.valiasr-aj.com/fa/page.php?bank=question&id=1866

 

With special than

First and last name : Ahmad                 Date :shahrivar 14 , 1389

I couldn`t read all the next , but from the reasons Dr. Ghazvini brought up , I conclude that he is merely stating that why there is no objection when Sunnis exaggerate, but as soon as Shia exaggerate , plenty might object !!! when I simply assume is that both are exaggerating and both are taking the wrong path .

What if we say that God Shares his blessings among his believers not among Imams ? or what if say ,what is it for us if Imams know all the sciences ? all those who made comments are merely trying to defend their sects.

First and last name  : Momen Abdullah

Date : shahrivar 14 , 1389

Ahmad , do you know why you are trying to stand against absolutism ? because , you are trying to spread polythism (relativism) . since , you don`t believe in infallible Imams , you are trying to manifest relativism as something common and ordinary . therefore , you see no problem in committing sins , superstitions and massacre . since you don`t believe in any absolute criterion . For example since you are denying Imam`s knowing the divine sciences , it shows you believe absolute ignorance therefore you might justify any massacre based on natural ignorance . If you don`t believe in Imams, Ergo you see no problem when some consider Khaled, Moavie and Ibn -Moljem`s massacre as something based on “mistake on Ijtihad” .

First and last name : Ahmad                Date : shahrivar 16,1388

Hello , I`d like to thank my dear friend , Momen Abdollah , for criticizing my comments . The question is, how relativism could be a justification for any massacre ? Assuming that we don`t have any access to “absolute criterion”, we have access to wisdom . any wise person condemns any massacre. The issue that how much this theory is ignored depends on human selfishness, even if we have access to “absolute criterion” . for example , every one knows that war is something bad , but it happens , not because humans are not aware of it`s consequences but it happens because they`re selfish . Therefore , the standard for knowing evil things like massacre is wisdom not “absolute criterion” . let us consider wisdom as our only option and it only gives one criterion and that is not to bother anyone and let all people live happily . we accidentally set some rules and then we obey them, and sometimes they might bother some people. Therefore , relativism lets us reform our rules , if we care about this issue , people might live happily . Tough, some might be killed during this process, will they be more than the ones who were killed in religious battles? This idea would not practically work, not because relativism of criteria but because of our selfishness. Sometimes, we cautiously do some inappropriate things. Richard Dawkins responded a muslim who considered relativism as his hypothesis flaw: “ Absolute etiquettes which issue the permission to stone somebody will be of no use for me” . I personally prefer relative etiquettes.

First and Last Name: Momen Abdullah     Date: Shahrivar 17 – 1389

Oh, Ahmad. From your comments, it is quite obvious that you believe that there is a flaw in relativism. You are advocating relativism in a way that you like to sacrifice yourself and your generation for it. I think you have suffered from absolutism. Simply speaking, you are saying: “ we all know that relativism might have some consequences, but what has absolutism done for us? So let us experience relativism and it would not be worse than absolutism”. Sunni people all say that same thing. Sunni say: “ Why only Ali`s wisdom? “ Why only Ali`s statements?” “Why don`t you care about others, their votes, the companions?” “ Why do you prefer one individual over others?” If we talk about prophet Muhammad, they consider him superior than anyone else. They say : “ He is connected with revelation and we regard revelation as something superior than anything else”. And that is why Sunnis have no fear introducing prophet Muhammad as someone captivated by jinns or someone who tried to kill himself or someone who lost his wisdom because of his magic or someone who hallucinated or someone who treated the poor with disrespect or someone who didn`t care about his spouses` Hiab or someone who left Muslims with no appointed leader and passed away!!!! . It is as if, God forbidden, Sunnis are considering prophet Muhammad like a radio, the one who received a message and transferred it and then it was turned off. Oh dear Ahmad, we are here to brush away your hostility with absolutism. Now, I`d like you to refer to the official website of World Health Organization (WHO):

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr63/en/index.html

You would find more comprehensive statistics here:

http://www.johnstonsarachive.net/policy/abortion/wrj.p3310.html

And if you refer to mentioned references in Wikipedia:

http: //enwikipedia.org/wiki/late

( I don`t consider Wikipedia as an authentic webpage, but I refer to its mentioned references) You see that at least 2 percent of these abortions were doen after 4 month of pregnancy. (Though, I personally believe abortion after 2 days of pregnancy is a murder). So by a rough calculation, we can come up with a result in which 800000 innocent babies are killed annually merely because of  an atheist`s movement like Dawkin`s. Oh Dawkins, not only does stoning prevent illegitimate birhts like you, but it also prevents millions of innocent embryos to be killed. Though abortion might not be an important issue for you atheists , but it really hurts our feelings. But are they more than the ones killed in religious battles during history? It depends on what religion you are talking about . The whole number of killed Muslims is less than the ones killed in relative religion !!! it is obvious that relativism has done the most violent , bloody massacres and genocide in history.

 

http://photos.state.gov/libraries/amgov/133183/week-4/073010-vcmonument-500.jpg

http://www.victimsofcommunism.org

 

The number of people killed who followed relativism: 100,000,000 .

100,000,000 have been killed just because of communism. that`s why I call it “filthy relativism” . you see how filthy it is now add up the number of people who were killed in Nazism to see how doomed and wicked relativism is . Then how could an atheist criticize a universal , godly and unified tradition ? how could he criticize a child molester or a Moavie - like slut , or how could he criticize stoning? It seems he is waiting for illegitimate infants like Stallin or Moavie ? “we accidentally set some rules and we follow them that some of which might hurt some people . so relativism let us reform our rules . If we continue this, there will be no more unsatisfied people . yes , undoubtedly, it reduces the number of unsatisfied people , because they will be dead !!!

Great -Leap - Forward

http ://en . Wikipedia .org /wiki/ Great-Leap-Forward

Why relativism could be a justification for any murder? For a simple reason: “«لو كان فيهما آلهه الا الله لفسدتا»

Murderers say: “ Making youths happy and keeping them intoxicated is more important than preserving their wisdom”. Pornographers say: “ exciting and tempting youth is more important than preserving families”.And that is something that made people suffer so much. They murder people, then they justify it with relativism.

“ Any wise person knows that killing people is something immoral”. Oh Ahmad, if someone rapes one your family member, wouldn`t you agree to execute him?

 

First and Last Name: Mohsen       Date: Shahrivar 17-1389      14:32:12

Oh Ahmad, let me tell you some points about your discussion; When you said: “ Why relativism could be a justification for any murder?” You exactly pointed out the main flaw of relativism. Relativism says something that might be forbidden in a community and the same thing might be recommended in another community. And simply it justifies any massacre, I emphasize: any massacre for example, abortion about which you said: “ Any wise person knows that killing others is immoral” ; First of all, your idea is nothing but absolutism. What do you mean “any wise person”? How are you sure? Some might not say that. For example, ignorant Arabs considered killing their infant daughters as something appropriate or Plato, in his book, considers killing infants as a proper way to avoid overpopulation. Nazists say killing elderly people help us cut off the unnecessary expenses of a society. Even now, in Europe, some agrees with killing those who are suffering from incurable disease. Japanese regard suicide as something appropriate. Chinese think of execution as a proper punishment for junkies and thieves. Some ethnic groups consider killing an outsider as something appropriate. Second of all, murdering, in a society which follows relativism, is being praised much that there is no need for any secondary factor, like selfishness. For example, in some late African tribes, keeping people`s skulls was considered to be as trophy. Teimur, as well, considered his first murder in his youth as his trophy. More interestingly, an Arab asked prophet Muhammad that if there is any bloodshed in heaven, prophet gave him a negative answer, and he said: “ So, it will be no good”. If you just survey carefully, you would find plenty of people, regarding murdering as their trophies. Third of all relativism made a lot of undeniable massacre in history. People of Mongolia still praise Genghis and his massacre. Relativism can not condemn Genghis`s massacre, since he is praised in his own society. Napoleon, Hitler, Saddam and plenty of other murders as well. Of course, it is merely about murdering. About praising or condemning the other human activities, story is the same. But about the thing you said : “ Let`s think we have no criteria...... we accidentally set some rules ...... Relativism allows us reform our rules...” First of all, I want you to say where did it happen? Which nation accidentally set some rules? We are talking about real humans and real societies in which they have some criteria and they don`t accidentally set rules. And when you said: “ Will they be more than the ones killed in battles under the name of religion?” I want you to ponder about the casualties in Rome vs. Iran, or Rome vs. Greece, Rome vs. Sports, Ancient Egypt vs. Iran.... and World War I, Worl War II and the current wars and also victims of power, land, water, energy and racism. You have been given the wrong statistics. They have intentionally given you the wrong data to get you away from religion. This huge number of casualties is the result of the made up rules you are advocating. Second of all, if there was no relativism , everyone would have obeyed divine rules instead, and no battle would have been made. Oh Ahmad, I, as a Muslim, ask you: people of Lut didn`t consider sodomy as something immoral, they thought , it wouldn`t hurt anyone. So why god punished them? I hope you believe in God`s wisdom. I have many similar questions. For example, Shoaibs were all short-changers and they defrauded in dealings. But they didn`t consider it as something immoral. But they considered as smartness and they praised short-changers. What do you say about that? Why did god punish them? Technically speaking when all people in a nation are apostates, apostasy is not considered as an immoral thing. So, why did god send prophets to fight with apostasy?  Why didn`t god leave these tribes in peace? They really liked what they were doing. I have another point to make: One of my friend lived in Scandinavian country. He said, a female can have sexual relationship with three men at the same time and her husband cannot limit her. Tell Mr. Dawkins, this relativism that lets you spouse to have sexual relationship with men will be of no use of you. I personally prefer absolutism.

First and last name: Hussain        Date: Shahrivar 30-1389        09:40:53

That was brilliant. That was Ali who fought with the three filthy sects of Kharijites, Exaggerators, and anti-Shias . He defeated Kharijites in Nahravan, Anti-Shai in Safain, and Exaggerators in Jamal. According to Tabrai, Exaggerators were the ones who smelled excriment of Aisha`s camel and said: “ Our mother`s camel`s excrement smells like a perfume”

First and last name: Muhammad      Date: Aban 18-1389      18:26:55

Hello to you dear friends. As far as I, a Sunni, know that thing you said was nothing but exaggerating some Sunni beliefs and ignoring others. You merely judged on your own. The issues you brought up were nothing but advertising Shia. And also prophet Muhammad was never a mad person. He didn`t appoint any successors because whatever he did was considered as his practice and he would have had to appoint one successor after each caliph and that`s quite similar to monarchy. Besides, there are also other reasons I`like you to refer to if Shia stop filtering Sunni websites.

First and last name:    Majid.M. Ali      Date: Aban 19-1389       12:31:38

Hello, dear Muhammad, do you believe the following verses?

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلاَئِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً ( البقره 30)

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ

وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَابَ وَجَعَلْنَا مَعَهُ أَخَاهُ هَارُونَ وَزِيرًا *** الفرقان

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ

أَيُّهَا يَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَإِن

لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ وَاللّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ

النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ

If prophet Muhammad appointed Ali, it is as if Allah (God) appointed him just like other eleven Imams. As you said, how could we compare this divine monarchy with other elected governments or with dictatorships?

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آَمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ .

O People who believe! Obey Allah and the Noble Messenger and those amongst you who are in authority;

I hope you believe this verse:

 

 

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ

مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَى . وَمَا يَنْطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَى . إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَى .

Oh my dear friend, Muhammad , do you beleive Omar? (if you believe him as a caliph so you believe what he believes) When Omar says: “ Ibn-abbas says: “When prophet Muhammad`s sickness got worse , he said: “«ائتونى بكتاب اكتب لكم كتاباً لا تضلّوا بعده، قال عمر: إنّ النبىّk غلبه الوجع، وعندنا كتاب الله حسبنا;

Provide me a paper to write something for you, so you won`t be deviated” Omar said: “ Prophet is really sick and I think the holy book is enough for us” . ( Sahih-Bokhari – Ketab-al-Alam chapter 39 Hadith 4).

In another interpretation, it says: : «فقال عمر: انّ رسول الله قد غلب عليه الوجع، وعندكم القرآن، حسبنا كتاب الله».(صحيح مسلم، كتاب الوصية، باب 6، ح8)

In another case , it is said that: : «فقالوا: أهجر رسول الله».

( Sahih-Bokhari Aljahad and Al-Seyr   Chapter 175   Hadith 1)

In 2 books it is said that: «فقالوا: ما شأنه؟ أهجر؟ استفهموه».

(Sahih-Bokhari , 17 Magahazi, Chapter 84, Hadith 4 and Sahih-Moslem , Vasyat Chapter 6 Hadih 6) .

Believing Omar means believing his idea so you say : حضرت نبي صلي الله عليه و اله و سلم ليهجر

First and last name :Abdullah               Date : Aban 20-1389           23:31:22

You said: “prophet Muhammad didn`t appoint any successors because whatever he did was considered as his practice and he would have had to appoint one successor after each caliph and that`s quite similar with monarchy”.

First of all, if whatever prophet did was considered as his practice , Abu-Bakr would have appointed any successor after him.

Second of all , if appointing Ali as prophet`s successor was not right , why Bani-Ommiads did the same ? why Al- saud occupied all Hijaz ?

Third of all , who is the Muslims caliph now ? If they have one, how did they assign him ? If they don`t have any, why ?

First and last name : Mehrdad Sadrodin      Date: Day 9         01:11:52

The main reason for the massacre after prophet demise is just because Zahra`s tomb stone is hidden why? Wasn`t she buried after a short interval after prophet ? as prophet said , she is the most honorable lady.

Why Sunnis do not ponder why her tomb stone is hidden? Don`t you consider it as their dissatisfaction over the things occurred after prophet Muhammad demise. Why first and second caliphs couldn`t pray over Zahra`s dead body ? Sunnis have ridiculous beliefs . for example , there was a battle ,Jamal ,among Aisha , Talhe , Zobeir vs. Caliph of the time , Emar and other companions , one side was undoubtedly not right , so how could consider all companions as heaven dwellers? why Sunnis don`t consider the plenty verses about hypocrites ? Isn`t hypocrite the one who pretends to be a believer but deep inside he`s like an evil? Don`t think that these hypocrites were a group of prophet`s companions ? if not, they`re not hypocrites anymore , they`re either apostates or polytheists . Quran has verses about both apostates and polytheists . so hypocrites belong to another group , they`re not apostates  or polytheists . don`t think whoever declines prophet Muhammad`s statement should be consider as apostate ? and if presence Zahra was upset because of Fadak and not Ali`s guardianship, so Abu-Bakr didn`t want to give Zahra the land that she was the rightful owner of ? so he believed Zahra was lying? Do you think the most honorable lady of the world lied for a piece of land ? ordinary female believers don`t do anything like that , let alone Fatima Zahra, the most honorable lady of the world , prophet`s daughter . besides, as Omar quoted that prophet said: “ prophecy and guardianship won`t be in my family”, so why did he join Ali to a six-member council ?when he did this , it means Ali had the privilege to be a caliph, so Omar again talked again what prophet had  already said. apparently , caliphs, all , had problems with prophet statements, they always wanted to manipulated his words . Those who like to have debates , I demand them all to study the book about doubts, Ayatollah Husseini , the great scholar , has responded your accusations hundred years ago, alongside with Sunni authentic sources. Finally , I think , something is mistaken, Sunnis are the great Shia scholars who had the same manner , balance, awesomeness, humility and faith just like real prophet`s companions. If anyone says the contrary , I would like him to socialize with Imamie scholars for a while . may God lead these who are seeking for perfection. May he keep them firm and stable . As Ali, the commander. of Islam said, وسلام لاهله

First and Last name: Obeid     Date: Esfand 21-1389        08:36:03

امير المومنين: اليمين و الشمال مَضَلُه و الطريق الوسطي هي الجاده، عليها باقي الکتاب وآثار النبوه و منها منفذ السنه و اليها مصير العاقبه

Translation: Left and right are the deviating paths, the middle one is the straight path, the one which is recommended by Quran and prophecy- the gate is the practice of prophet and all will return to it. (Nahjolbalaghe- Oration 16)

First and Last Name: Abbas      Date: Farvardin 15         00:02:23

Mr. Ghazvini responses with contradicting the facts. Answers are in 2 kinds, either contradictory or reasoning. We are not saying that exaggeration is accepted. What we are trying to say is that you can not accuse Shias of exaggeration because you yourself exaggerate about your owns, otherwise you have contradicted the things you said about your own figures. Shia don`t accept any form of exaggeration about prophet and Imams.  Shia`s Imams and scholars stood against exaggerators, so the falsely accuse Shia of exaggeration. ( I don`t deny the exaggerators but they were few and religious scholars stood against them) . Some of them are not exaggerations, like being virtuous or having a broad knowledge, because there are Quranic proofs or them and also prophet Muhammad talked about them. Twelve Imams are not God, They are not bless givers but their knowledge, manner or prayers are not comparable with  common people. Those who consider prophet and Imams as equal as common people are not exaggerating , they are making a big mistake. We have to have a balance. What is confirmed by the book, practice and wisdom, must be accepted and what is not should be thrown away, This is a proper a criteria to find the truth.

 

First and Last name: S.M.D       Date: Farvardin 19-1390      13:45:56

There is statement in Sahih-Moslem V8,P229, considered as the following phrase prophet Muhammad`s Hadith ( Hadith manipulation) : “ Don`t write anything on behalf of me, whoever wrote something except Quran, he or she should omit it”

This shows that Sunnis are taking the wrong track, since if it is from prophet, it shouldn`t have been written in a book. It also contradicts with Quran. Quran is a precious book by which Sunnis believe they`ll be led, as a verse 33, Sura Muhammad says : “O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle, and do not make your deeds of no effect.”

Verse 59, Sura Nesa, آيه 59سوره نساء

From the two mentioned verses , we conclude that believers must obey God and prophet to get salvation, what if prophet was not right , how could people get salvation after prophet demise? Knowing that Islam is religion for all time and all generations.

First and last name : Farvardin 23-1390                 15:30:21

I have a question for Sunnis, we have heard in prophet Muhammad`s practice whenever prophet wanted to send a troop even a small one, he assigned three leaders for it, to have them ready if one of them got martyred. Now, how is it possible that he left this huge Islamic community without appointing a leader? He didn`t even appoint a successor like Abu-Bakr did, how could Abu-Bakr think of Islam and prophet couldn`t? Technically speaking, if the holy book suffices and there`s no need for successor or leader, why they relied on prophet statements and set their rules based on it, why did they appoint leaders for other regions? Does it show their wisdom? Or prophet didn`t know about it and he didn`t fullfill his mission. And people who were wiser than him thought about it. First and Last Name: Omid Date: 23-Ordibehesht 1390    17:40:40

Oh dear Muslim brothers, this website and some who make comments here are cautiously or unconsciously moving toward Zionist purposes. I demand you to be careful about reading the comments and also commenting as well.

First and Last Name: Momen Abduallah     Date: Ordibehesht 25-1390      19:40:50

Oh Omid, do you think that Zionists have any greater goal than destroying the prophet practice and substituting it with Zionism and Abu-Bakrism? Technically speaking, Is there anything more destructive than Abu-Bakrism in Judaism among its adultery, sodomy, murdering?  Aren`t you a Muslim?

First and last name:   S.M. D   Date: Khordad 3-1390     22:49:28

Dear friends, you have to know that we only bring these issues up to inform you. We don`t have any hostility with Sunnis. They are deprived from truth because of their governments. They are the followers of whom they took prophet`s place illegitimately, they are blindly following them. We are all responsible to let them know, to show them the right path we are taking. So let us put bias aside. Let us see what is truth and follow it.

First and Last Name: Abdul Ghadir Nikiar  Shakibani - Harat- Afghanistan   

Date: Khordad 15-1390     16:02:56

You unwise people think there is a difference between Shisim and Sunnism, if there is, only those uneducated and spy jurists would like to mention. If we believe that there are differences among Shias and Sunnis, then how could we fulfill prophet Muhammad and caliphs missions. It`s a shame to make differences among them, I believe there is no difference, if we consider any differences, then we would not have a pure Islam. Of course Islam is the unique  and famous religion in the history. We, ourselves are weakening Islam, we are showing Islam a religion with disunion, and apostates are taking the most advantage out of this golden opportunity and we Muslims are all ignorant. We are ignorant because of our bias manner, and be sure that apostates all like us to be ignorant, they want us to insult each other. I am a Sunni and I only see difference in pious and abstaining. I demand all Shia and Sunni brothers not to fight with each other, you see the whole Islamic world is in battle and then profanity might take advantage you know the Satan is the sworn enemy of Muslims. I demand you not to fight under the name of Shiism and Sunnism. If you say Shiism is the superior sect, why there is still a war and if Sunnism is the superior, why there are still battles and wars in Islamic countries? You see no war in non-Islamic countries. There is no difference between an Afghan and an Iranian individual. I get upset when I see your comments, Satan leads us this way.

Oh dear Sunni and Shia brothers, stop talking like this for Omar`s Sake. Just fight for islam not for Shiism or Sunnism.

Abdul Ghadir Nikiar -Harat -Afghanistan

First and Last Name: Momen Abduallah      Date: Khordad 17-1390  00:36:48

Oh dear Nikiar, I really appreciate your advices. May god himself pave the way for Muslims, but dear brother you said “ Don`t talk like this for Omar`s sake” ; May I say let`s not talk like this for the sake Abulolo, the commander.

First and Last Name: Amir Ali    Date: Tir -16-1390    14:34:22

In the name of God, I`m addressing my speech to Sunnis, those who claim to be the advocates of Islamic unity, if you are really the advocates of unity, then why and with what permission you Molavis and speaker accuse Shias of polytheism just because of their imploration and visiting tombstones?

I personally saw a Wahhabi speaker cursed a Shia and order to kill him. How do you guarantee  that following Abuhonayfe, Malik and other Sunni Imams will lead us to heaven and how could you say that following Ah-al-Beit is apostasy and polytheism? Why should we forget about our own Imams and follow people like Omar, Abukar and Osman? What virtues did your scholars had that ours didn`t? Answer me if you can.

 

 

 



Alnmanyh Anwar, vol 1, p 31

[2]- Zkhrf / 45

[3]- al-Kafi, vol 1, pp. 239

[4]- Alanam / 59

[5]- - Musnad Ahmad, c 4, pp. 254 - Sunan al-Tirmidhi, c 3, p 327 - Mustadrak governor, c 4, pp. 472 and ...

[6]- Damascus, vol 12, p 266 - Musnad Ahmad, vol 5, p 401 – Anfagh Asma, c 9, p 325

[7]- Mustadrak governor, c 4, pp. 505 - Mosnad Aboiali, c 2, p 352 - Dralamnthor, c 2, p 72 - Tahdheeb Mzee, vol 27, p 142 – Mojam KabirTeirani , c 19, p 274

[8]- Rozal Faegh, p270

[9]- Almizan Asharani v 1 p46, Masharegh Alanvar p 288

[10]- Anam, p59

[11]- Nozhatol Majalis, v 2, p184. Mesbah-al-Zalam-al-Jordani v2, p25

[12]- Tafsir Fakhr Razi , v 21, p88

[13]- Tafsir Fakhr Razi v 21, p 88

[14]- Tafsir Fakhr Razi v 21, p 88

[15]- Tafsir Fakhr Razi v 21, p 88



Share
* Name:
* Email:
* Comment :
* Security code:
  

Latest Articles
Most Comments
Most viewed
Index | Contact us | Archive | Search | Link | List Comments | About us | RSS | Mobile |