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Answering the misgivings

Date : Monday, July 03, 2006


Dr. Husseini Qazvini: our discussion revolved around this topic that one of the strongest and most fundamental weapons of Wahhabism was accusing the Shiites and other Islamic sects of polytheism just because these sects supplicate to the holy prophet of Islam and divine authorities like Imams.

Today, I tried to point out a few issues briefly and talk about the experiences I had regarding these issues.

Wahhabis do not consider the supplication to the prophet or divine authorities as an unlawful act as long as those being supplicated to our alive. Unfortunately, some of our dear friends who have written books on Wahhabism or written criticisms over its ideology have referred to some reasons which are all accepted by the Wahhabis themselves. As I have pointed out the following holy verse, they say, is an indication that only we can supplicate to people who are alive that is why Wahhabis limit the concept of supplication to living people.

يَا أَبَانَا اسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا[1]


وَ لَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَ اسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا[2]

Even they mention a narration from Sahih Bokhari:" during the caliphate of Umar Ibn Khattab there was a drought. Umar went to Abbass the holy prophet’ uncle saying that:" during the time of the holy prophet (PBUH) they supplicated to him and now they supplicate to you to ask God to descend us the rain of his mercy”.

As an answer, they say:" Umar Ibn Khatab mentioned such a narration in a group of the companions and Muhajerin and Ansar and nobody objected to him. If supplication to a dead person was permissible, there was no need for Umar to supplicate to the uncle of the holy prophet (PBUH).

Here, you have to do two things: first we have to weaken the enemy and then take his weapon, and number two: they have to prove our case logically and based on narrations.

Now back to the narration you mentioned earlier: the above-mentioned narration is absolute and there is no evidence in it against the prohibition of supplication to the holy prophet (PBUH). Umar Ibn Khattab did not say that they do not supplicate to the holy prophet or he didn 't call the act of supplication an act of polytheism either. However, he 's saying that we supplicated to the holy prophet of Islam before and now we want to supplicate to his uncle. When he hasn 't said that the supplication to the holy prophet was passed and done you cannot draw such a conclusion from his remarks. if he had explicitly said “now that the holy prophet is gone we cannot supplicate to him and if you do such an act you will be considered as a polytheist and you have committed a Haraam”.

There are also other narrations indicating that the companions of the holy prophet of Islam supplicated to him even during the caliphate of Umar Ibn Khattab. I myself had the meeting with Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah al-Sheikh, the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, in our one- our discussion, I asked him if the supplication to the prophets and the divine authorities like the imams had any problem during their lifetimes.

I asked him if he was willing to think otherwise if I presented him some evidence from the book of God and traditions of the holy prophet of Islam and he agreed. I asked them how it was possible for supplication to be a lawful act as long as the holy prophet of Islam was alive but as soon as he passed away the act of supplication turned into something unlawful and an indication of a person’s infidelity and polytheism. I also asked him if he believed that the holy prophet of Islam was not able to do us harm or any good after his demise. I told him even if they believe so, supplication would be a useless act and a waste of time not polytheism or infidelity. For instance, when a person is asking a wall to feed him, he is just wasting his time.

The Saudi Arabia’s mufti said: “we do not have any examples of the companions supplicating to the holy prophet after his demise". I replied:" there are multitude narrations in your own books and sources like Sonan Beyhaqi for Mosnef Ibn Abi Sheibah who mentions a narration:

أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر رضي الله عنه، فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم فقال: يا رسول الله! استسق لامتك، فإنهم قد هلكوا، فأتى الرجل في المنام فقيل له : ائت عمر فأقرئه السلام ، وأخبره أنكم مسقون و قل له : عليك الكيس ! عليك الكيس ! فأتى عمر فأخبره فبكى عمر ثم قال : يا رب لا آلو إلا ما عجزت [3]عنه.

“During Umar’s ruling. People were affiliated with famine and drought. A man visited Holy prophet’s (PBUH) shrine and said: O you! The messenger of God! People are dying in this drought. Please ask God for rain for your people.

The holy prophet (PBUH) told that man in his dream: “Soon there will be rain! And you won’t be thirsty anymore and tell him to treat people with generosity.

That man described his dream to Umar. His eyes were filled tears and said: O God! I have always tried my best but have failed!"

He replied:" this narration is Morsal and weak and cannot be given as strong evidence.” but I told him that on the contrary two of the greatest Sunni scholars had confirmed the authenticity of the narration and he asked me who those two Sunni scholars were. I replied that they were Ibn Hajar Asqalani in Fathol-Bari and Ibn Kathir Dameshqi in Albedayeh va Alnaahyeh.

When I gave him the address of the narration you was shocked and started giving me irrelevant explanations for around 10 minutes but one of his assistants was sitting next to him said : “ what you are saying is not relevant to the question posed, please tell us whether the authentication of the narration by Ibn Hajar Asqalani in Fathol-Bari and Ibn Kathir Dameshqi in Albedayeh va Alnaahyeh this correct.”

He pointed to one of his staff to fetch him the books and they all saw that what I was saying was the truth and nothing but the truth.

I was really taken aback to see that a grand mufti in Saudi Arabia who is considered to be one of the highest-ranking positions in religion and also the highest scientific rank among the scholars had been seen such a narration and no one had reminded him of such Hadiths during his lifetime. I have the same discussion with Mohamed bin Jamil Zeino in his house in holy Mecca. He also said that he had not seen such narrations while he has written more than 70 books which have been translated into different languages in the world. As we are discussing, 40 students there listening to him admitting the fact that he hadn 't seen such narrations and he needed some time to answer.

We have to be very cautious in our discussions, it is not an appropriate and scientific way to start a lengthy introduction, then digress from the main topic and avoid answering. They have to be more accurate in our studies to see what the problematic areas and to see what are the weaknesses of our opponents and hit him when he does not expect. In some cases, you might the study hard for 50 hours and finally find a sentence or two which could be conducive to your winning the discussion.

Another point that I have to explain here but brothers is theoretical issues are extremely different from scientific and applied issues. If you just listen to 500 sessions like this, which will do you no good but when you will run into one of our Sunni brothers or a Wahhabi and start arguing, it will become a like fight. a Fight in which first you bring your own reasons which are rejected by your opponent and then you start searching for some answers, at that time you understand the value of research and the joy it brings. Therefore, I personally believe that those friends of ours who are trying to work in this area have to go through a workshop first or even some practice debates so that they can strengthen their power of debate. If you have any travels within and without the country try to have a few sessions of debate with religious school students or scholars and if you fail to answer their questions, you have been successful for 99% since then you are lost for answers, then you have to go and search for some. As they say" necessity is the mother of invention”. As long as you do not feel the need to go out and search for some answers, you won 't do anything. I do believe that as long as a debate on Velayat, Christianity, and Judaism does not become practical and does not take the form of a real discussion we cannot claim that it is conducive to the learning process. I have had several discussions about this narration for which no one was able to provide me with an answer.

Another interesting point to note here is that one of the grand Sunni scholars from Shafei sect called Hasni Dumeshqi Shafei who has been praised by other Sunni scholars like Zarkally in a book called Al-Alam and who was also one of the prominent and well-known scholars in Syria and even it is said that the participation of people in his funeral was unprecedented, in his book called” dafol Shobha An Rasololah” which is written against Wahhabi ideology, has a stated a beautiful point:

من استغاث بميت أو غائب من البشر، بحيث يدعوه في الشدائد و الكربات و يطلب منه قضاء الحاجات ... فإن هذا ظالم ضال مشرك» هذا شئ تقشعر من الأبدان و لم نسمع أحدا فاه، بل و لا رمز إليه في زمن من الأزمان و لا بلد من البلدان، قبل زنديق حران - قاتله الله عز وجل و قد فعل - و جعل الزنديق الجاهل الجامد قصة عمر رضي الله عنه دعامة للتوصل بها إلى خبث طويته في الإزدراء بسيد الأولين و الآخرين و أكرم السابقين و اللاحقين و حط رتبته في حياته و أن جاهه و حرمته و رسالته و غير ذلك زال بموته و ذلك منه كفر بيقين و زندقة محققة[4]

“When ibn Taymiyyah says that those who supplicate Jehovah to it. Person will ask for their prayers to be the answered are nothing but depressing, ignorant polytheists.”It is a shocking remark to say that supplication to the holy prophets after their demise is considered as deviation. I have never heard anyone say such a thing in any place or at any time. No one even has implied such thing in his writings before the apostate of Haran area: Ibn Taymiyyah. And this ignorant infidel who is set in his ideology has used this story of Umar Ibn Khattab’ supplication to the uncle of the holy prophet of Islam so that through his evil- intentioned techniques you can separate the holy prophets from people and wants to prove that after the demise of the holy prophet his position and dignity and mission before God all went away. These remarks made by him are nothing but infidelity and I truly believe he is a heretic."

The way he talks about Taymiyyah is really serious, all these insulting remarks, coming from the prominent Shafei scholar!!

If our Shiite brothers repeatedly say that Alameh Amini has said this or that, they easily reject your argumentation but if you say that these narrations are quoted by your own scholars, they will accept it. He is either telling the truth or is lying. If he 's lying then is considered a heretic and infidel and you have to question his honesty and piety. And if he is telling the truth, then you have to question the honesty and piety of ibn Taymiyyah. Here, we do not have a confrontation of Sunnis and Shiites but the debate is happening between Sunnis and Wahhabis and the accusations are made by a very prominent and trustworthy scholar. Another discussion just the practical these days is the ideology of Ibn Taymiyyah since today they have idolized him and as one of the grand religious figures has said the have to try to bring down that idol. If you can break this idol into pieces, then you have succeeded 90% and let me tell you one of ways to accomplish that is through using his own words. The laymen out in the street might not be able to comprehend some of the expressions and terms used by Taymiyyah but when you 're talking about Ahlol-Beit or Ali (AS) who is respected by everyone and when when we mention some of the insults made by him about Almomenin Ali (AS), then everyone will understand what a heretic and infidel they are dealing with. He has some extremely insulting remarks the holy dignity of Ali (AS) which boil the blood of every extremist Wahhabi.

Ibn Hajar-Asqalani, one of the great Sunni scholars and a contemporary of Ibn Taymiyyah says:

و كم من مبالغة لتوهين كلام الرافضي أدته أحيانا إلى تنقيص علي رضي الله عنه [5]

“Ibn Taymiyyah, in his book called "Menhaj-al-Sonah” which is written to reject Alameh Helli (RH), has exaggerated so much that even the grand dignity of Ali (AS) has been insulted by him.”

Even Ibn Taymiyyah has openly asserted that Ali (AS) (may God forgive me for saying that) has acted against the book of God in 17 cases.

أخطأ في سبعة عشر شيئا، ثم خالف فيها نصَّ الكتاب.


Ibn Hajar Asqalani says:

و افترق الناس فيه شيعا منهم من نسبه إلي التجسيم ... و منهم من ينسبه إلى الزندقة لقوله: أن النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم لا يستغاث به و إن في ذلك تنقيصا و منعا من تعظيم رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم ... و منهم من ينسبه إلى النفاق لقوله: أخطأ علي في سبعة عشر شيئا، ثم خالف فيها نص الكتاب و لقوله: إنه كان مخذولا حيث ما توجه و إنه حاول الخلافة مرارا فلم ينلها و إنه قاتل للرياسة لا للديانة و لقوله: إنه يحب الرياسة و إن عثمان يحب المال و لقوله: أبو بكر أسلم شيخا يدري ما يقول و علي أسلم صبيا و الصبي لا يصح إسلامه ... .

فإنه شنع في ذلك، فألزموه بالنفاق لقوله: و لا يبغضك إلا منافق

“Regarding Taymiyyah, people have various opinions. Some of them call him a religious hypocrite because he has said that Ali (AS) has acted against the book of God in 17 case since he says Ali (AS) was mean person struggling to be Caliph several times and he was fighting for power not religion. Then he says when Abu-Bakr converted into Islam he knew what Islam was about Ali (AS) accepted Islam blindly because at the time of his conversion to Islam it was only a child and we cannot consider the religion of a child the true religion.

Some other Muslims believe that Ibn Taymiyyah was a religious hypocrite because about Ali (AS), the holy prophet (PBUH) once said: “ no one but a religious hypocrite might call you a hypocrite.”

This narration can be found in Sahih Moslem:

إنه لعهد النبي الأميk إلىّ: أن لا يحبني إلا مؤمن و لا يبغضني إلا منافق[6]

“no one loves me like a true believer, and no one hates me like a religious hypocrite.”

 These where some of the remarks made by Ibn Taymiyyah and the even has some insulting remarks about the holy dignity of Fatima (AS) which I cannot even alter the word. Ayatollah Milani has mentioned all the insults, fallacies, accusations, and slanders put forward by ibn Taymiyyah about Ahlol-Beit in a book called “Derasat Menhaj al-Sonah” and he has also written some reviews on them.



Name : Sayeh,  Date: Monday, March 30, 2009

Why do you think wahhabis avoid answering questions posed by the Muslim community  ?

Name : Dr. Abbas Godarzi, Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009.

I personally think that wahhabis lack any supporting scientific evidence from the Quran  and they are doomed to be defeated in any debate that is why they avoid any scientific debates.

[1] . Yusuf Surah, Verse,97.

[2] .Nesa Surah, Verse,64.

[3]. Dalael Alnbvh Bayhaqi, vol 7, p 47, chapter7 , chapter of  Ma Ja’ Fi Nabi [prophet PBUH and upon [Fe Almnam, Almsnf Ibn Abi DataTable, vol 7, p 482 History of Damascus, vol 44, p 346 and vol-56, pp. 489, Alastyab, vol 3, pp. 1149, Islamhistory, vol 3, p 273, Albadayh Valnahayh, vol 7, p 105, events or year 18, Alasabh, vol 6, p 216; Fath Albary, vol 2 , pp. 412, chapter of  Alnas Alamam Alastsqa’, Iza Qahto va Kenz Almal, vol 8, p 431.

[3] . Albary Fatah, vol 2, p 412, chapter of question Alnas Alamam Alastsqa’ Za Qahto.


[4] . Dafol Shobha An Rasololah Hasni Dumeshqi Shafei ,p.131.


[5] .lesan Al-mizan Lebn Hajar, volume 6, page 320.

[6] . Sahih Moslem, volume 1, page, 61.

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